Dear N. Khan

The Disney film on Mulan certainly gave a lot of publicity to a Chinese heroine who is well known in Chinese folk-lore, but not outside China. Most Western school-kids in the West will now know Mulan as the Chinese girl, who went to war disguised as a man, in place of her aging father. It is still debatable whether there was a true Mulan, and which dynasty she was from. Many believe that she was from the Song Dynasty. You can refer to Mulan at CTB http://www.chinapage.com/mulan.html

There is also a long Chinese TV serial done on Mulan, as well as various Chinese opera and folk stories.

Besides the publicity, the other positive aspects are that it showed:

a) An example of Chinese filial piety, the willingness to sacrifice for parents and family. Mulan is also a symbol of Chinese patriotism.

b) A female role model in Mulan, capable of matching a man in physical stamina and agility in a male dominated world. (In one story I read, there was a happy ending. Mulan, after being discharged from military service, met her general who paid a visit to see ‘him’. Since she had secretly fallen in love with the general, she met him pretending to be Mulan’s sister. The general was so smitten by her beauty, and her dedication, that they were happily married.)

c) The historical reality in ancient China, when the people had to face a cruel existence, with attacks from northern ‘barbarians’ like the Xiongnu (Huns), Qidans, Jin (of Manchu stock), Mongol, Tibetan and Xixia tribes. Although not shown in the film, the rich and the powerful, especially the scholars, were usually able to avoid conscription, and this was grossly unfair to the peasantry, who had to bear the brunt of taxes and military service. Usually, the northern frontier had to suffer yet another tragedy, viz. the traitors and capitulators in the Song imperial court.

The negative aspects, small by contrast, are that:

a) Mulan’s story is made into a fairy tale with a dragon and a cricket, somewhat remote from a more serious story of sacrifice and patriotism. Chinese will find this amusing, but not befitting of their heroine.

b) The northern invaders, diplomatically incorrect to be called ‘barbarians’, were featured with faces and actions depicting evil. To be fair, they were nomads, with a life-style of horse-riding and raiding, a phase of development prior to having an agricultural base. The Wei Dynasty, founded by the Xianbei tribes, where originally raiders, but with assimilation and a farming infra-structure, they developed an effective and fairer system of taxation that the later Sui and Tang dynasties were to use. The Manchu raiders later contributed to two very great Qing Emperors, the Kangxi and Qian Long Emperors. Hence, descendents of the Mongols and Manchus may feel that their forebears have been wrongly painted as evil versus good, rather than as an expected tribal raiding life-style in those anarchic times. Remus and Romulus did no better when they killed the Sabine men and abducted the Sabine women.

Tin-Kay

Dear Michelle

Chinese snuff bottles are very beautiful and came into fashion during the Qianlong Emperor's reign. There are very rare ones costing tens of thousands of dollars, and the biggest and best collection is by a Brazilian Chinese. I have a few books by the world snuff bottle specialist, Robert Kleiner, as well as one by Helen White from the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. The photos in these books are so lovely to look at, what more if you are the owner of the real snuff bottles. There are various snuff bottle exhibitions, and one shown recently in Singapore was accompanied by a catalog book written by Kleiner himself.

There is also an interesting Chinese movie with English subtitles on the history of a famous snuff bottle painter who was asked by a Qing prince to paint for the Japanese. This, he refused, since the Japanese were colonizing Manchuria at that time. He was subsequently put in jail, and on release, he put his hand under a horse carriage so that his crushed hand could not be subservient to the Qing prince. Fortunately, he passed on the skill to his son-in-law. I do not know whether this story is historically correct.

The snuff bottles available in many tourist shops in China are very cheap and require much time to paint from inside. There are usually two types, thin glass and thick glass, in various shapes and sizes. The designs are of animals, Chinese historical characters, sceneries, the four beauties, flowers, etc. I have been tempted on each trip to China to buy some.

You can borrow some of the books by Kleiner and the one by White from your library, hopefully in a French edition.

Tin-Kay

To Amber:
Cantonese is Chinese just like Wellingtonians are New Zealanders. There are many dialects in China and many subculture groups because of China's size. Cantonese is a group in southern China speaking a dialect called Cantonese. There are more than 10 million people who speaks this dialect. It is also the major dialect spoken in Hong Kong.

To Michelle:
The glass ball or sniff bottle that is painted from inside is a special artcraft in China. The artist uses fine paint brushes that have right angled tips to insert into the bottle and paints it from the inside. For the ball, it is probably sealed after the painting is finished.

If the setting of the novel is in China, I would say Li Jinsong is preferred. This writing style is generally followed by most Western media nowadays. It is what I try to standardize on at this website.

Of course if the novel's setting is the present-day California, then James Li is also ok.

Kui-lin shan shui chia t'ien hsia
Yang shuo k'an ch'eng chia Kui-lin
Ch'ün feng tao yingshan fu shui
Wu shui wu shan pu ju shen

Guilin - Landschaft einzig unter dem Himmel
Von Süden bis Nord mit Fug als Erste gerühmt, Guilin.
Berge, wasserumströmt, unzähl'ger Gipfel gespiegeltes Bild.
Und kein Fluss, kein Berg, den nicht aufnimmt die Seele!

How would you translate the 2nd verse? (I did it quite free style above): How about "Guilin - praised duely as Yangshuo county's number one" ?

Zoe, it might be necessary to give us an impression of how you'd like to 'design' this Chinese personality before we can make any suggestion for his personal name. Would you prefer to call him 'Hsimen' ;))) (after Chin P'ing Meh).

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

The Dao De Jing from the Han tomb is quite different though. The original Dao De Jing as excavated from the Changsha Mawangdui tomb has two volumes: First volume is name "De" and second voume named "Dao". There are also two versions ¥Ò¥» , ¤A¥». Each of them is missing part and the version we see today probably is from combination of different versions. As there was no printing press and everything relied on hand copy, there are a lot of errors in both of them. I guess this is what Carl was interested whether the original version was distorted by transcription into modern writing.

According to a very scholarly book by Li Shui Hai (1990), there are a lot of Chu language used in Dao De Jing which were not fully understood by the northern states. Many of the original words in the Han tomb are different from the current version. If any one is really interested in pursuing this, the book is :

§õ¤ô®ü¡G ¦Ñ¤l¹D¼w¸g·¡»y¦Ò½×¡C°¢¦è¤H¥Á±Ð¨|¥Xª©ªÀ¡C1990¡C

Now that another older version from Guodian is found, there will be more interesting differences to be identified.

While the term Dao De is now used in a combination, the book Dao De Jing does not talk about virtues or morality as the compound term means today. Rather, it tries to explain the laws of nature.

While Dao and De are two distinct words with different meaning, however, when they are used together as Dao De, they become one term for most people. Dao De means "virtue" and when we call somebody without virtue, we say that person has no dao de. People nowadays are not able or will not make a distinction of these two words when they are used together.

There are many words in Chinese that are not "translatable". Same with many foreign languages. In the field of translation, it has become acceptable to simply translate the sound of the words such as dao de. For people who are really interested in the actual meaning of the term, they would study more to find out what they mean. More and more of such words are now included in the dictionary.

Dao De Jing in fact was a combination of Dao Jing and De Jing, according to an ancient version. This was a Chu version written on cloth and Laozi was from Chu. One theory says it should be De Jing before Dao Jing. So, I think these two words can be translated independently of each other rather than as a combined term, which really comes after this book.

I do agree with you that Dao is better translated as "Way". I am just interested in knowing if "Flow" has some hidden meaning not expressed by Way.

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

(a) µÀ · Physically, a road.
(b) µÀ Àí Logically, the reason.
(c) µÀ µÂ Philosophically, the ethics
It is unfortunate that we translate the title of the book as the "Book of Dao" instead of the "Book of DaoDe," which will help to clarify the meaning or original intent if not the concept.

I am inclined to the German translation of "Way". As far as the English translation is concerned, it is probably too late to change the term "Dao" now.

Yes, "dao" and "de" are two terms very difficult to translate. Dao is more like Universal Laws, but it is too clumsy. The Way is ok. I don't like to use the word "God" as it then injects certain bias or controversy of which "God".

"De" is often viewed as "virtue" but it is not exactly either.

I am amazed how the ancient people invented these words for description of abstract concepts that can only be understood but not re-expressed.

'Flow' (much better than e.g. German 'das Fliessen' ='the flowing' etc.) reminds me of the ancient Greek 'panta rhei' (all is flowing): referring to the cyclic structure of 'the deep ground' of universe being eternal in change.

I also would be interested in Peter Mercel's comment.

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

Most CTB readers may not be aware that there is a wonderful annual ice “lantern” festival in Harbin, North-eastern China, from Christmas till the end of February. I have just been there some three weeks ago, and I would like to share my experience with our readers. Visitors to Beijing or North China during winter should try to go to Harbin for this fantasy ice show at night.

Prof. Ming L. Pei, Web-master of CTB, has kindly hosted the photographs of:

the Li Zhaolin Park Ice Carvings Night Show at http://www.chinapage.org/Goh/nite.html,
the Songhua Jiang (Pine Flower River) Ice and Snow Carvings at http://www.chinapage.org/Goh/songhua.html, and
the Taiyang Dao (Sun Island) Snow Carvings at http://www.chinapage.org/Goh/ice.html.

The Harbin Ice and Snow Carvings are located at three sites in Harbin:

a) Li Zhaolin Park has the world famous ice carving night show, and is very impressive with its wonderland of buildings, shapes and structures of ice illuminated with various colors. The park covers a large area with a light rail to see the exhibits from above. Parents will bring their children for a night outing, mingling with local and foreign tourists. The night temperature may be minus 25 to 30 degrees. The highlights are during the Spring Festival, which is known internationally as the Chinese New Year, being the 5th of February this year.

b) Songhua Jiang (Pine Flower River), located a street away from Li Zhaolin park, is frozen in winter and provides the ice on the river surface for its own ice exhibits, as well as those at the Li Zhaolin Park. In addition, the Songhua Jiang has snow carvings, made by compacting the snow and then using a hoe like tool to cut the block into shape. All the exhibits are actually on the top of the frozen river and are open for viewing in the day as well as at night, under illumination.

c) Taiyang Dao (Sun Island), some fifteen minutes by taxi from Li Zhaolin Park, has only snow carvings, which are spread over a large area. There is an international contest for snow carving, so late January may have more exhibits. Dog sledges are available for those wanting a ride on the ice.

Other Harbin tourist sites are i) the Siberian Tiger Park which is worth a visit for the breeding and conservation of the Manchurian tigers, ii) Stalin Park with statues, iii) Japanese Germ Warfare Experimental Base using Chinese, Russians, Koreans and British in WW2 as guinea pigs, iv) Russian Market, which is less active in winter, v) Downtown underground markets and shops and vi) Daoli District Russian architecture and St. Sophia Church, reminiscent of the large Russian expatriate population prior to their return to Russia under a Stalinist amnesty.

If you are travelling from Beijing, you may opt for the night train leaving at 6pm and arriving Harbin the next day at 7 am, with the return train from Harbin at 8 pm and arriving Beijing at 9 am. This will save two days of hotel accommodation. A word of warning: get the “soft seat” beds (with four to a compartment) which is so much more comfortable than the “hard seat” beds (with six to a compartment). Also be equipped with winter clothes, long johns and good gloves, all of which can be obtained cheaply at the Xiushui Dongjie behind the US Embassy in Beijing, as well as the underground shops in Harbin.

When in Harbin, try to stay at or near Zhongyang Dajie, the street located close to Li Zhaolin Park and the Songhua Jiang. The only Western-owned hotel is the Holiday Inn, which is at the downtown end of the Zhongyang Dajie.

Happy holidays for those braving minus 20 to 30 degrees Celcius for a once in a life-time Harbin Ice and Snow Craving Show.

Tin-Kay

It's good to hear from you again. I am happy to receive the revision of the GNL; and will try to update my page.

As I try to match the translation chapter by chapter to the original Chinese text, I wonder what I may have to do with the "structural changes" you introduced in version 3?

There are many translations of Dao De Jing. You are doing a great service by putting yours in the public domain and allow the world to read it. It is noble act.

Ming

I was wondering how you came up with "Flow" as the translation for Dao?

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

I do not have the two poems by Wang An-shih you gave in the last posting. I shall add them.

In return, here are a few of his poems you can find in the CTB website.

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      ±ß¼Ó¶¢§¤	¤ý¦w¥Û

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Ming:
Can you tell me, where this wall calligraphy is located and who is the artist. It looks somehow familiar to me.

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

Ah.. is located at: Force Canto

I recall that we discussed this a year or so back. I also have a photo of it carved on a stone wall as well.

Oops - the line from Wen T'ien-hsiang's poem 'Cheng Ch'i Ko' somehow got altered, sorry!

¦bº~ĬªZ¸`

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

Dear Ming: The title of Wang An-shih's poem we're referring to in my edition is 'yu4 yi4' (which I translated with 'Anspielung' in German - about: allusion/innuendo).
The Wang An-shih poem 'mei hua' obviously not included in your site is different from that mentioned by you. Here it is:

±öªá ¤ý¦w¥Û¸Ö

À𨤼ƪK±ö
­â´H¿W¦Û¶}
»»ª¾¤£¬O³·
¬°¦³·t­»¨Ó

Wen T'ien-hsiang's 'Kuo Ling Ting Yang' is there, but not his canto 'Cheng Ch'i Ko' found in my edition and included in my anthology as poem #32.

Here's a poem (also by Wang An-shih) addressing to his beloved sister, where you can find a hint to the wild goose (yen) as a symbol for those being separated from each other and longing for *messages* from their *distant* dear ones. This derives from the wild goose's flight, crossing far regions and regularly coming again every year, thus connecting those living far apart to their beloved ones at home.

¥Üªø¦w§g ¤ý¦w¥Û¸Ö

¤Ö¦~Â÷§O·N«D»´
¦Ñ¥h¬Û³{¨ª·[±¡
¯ó¯óªM½L¨Ñ¯º»y
©ü©ü¿O¤õ¸Ü¥­¥Í

¦Û¼¦´ò®ü¤T¦~¹j
¤S§@¹Ð¨F¸U¨½¦æ
±ý°Ý«á´Á¦ó¤é¬O
©_®ÑÀ³¨£¶­«n¼x

As for 'fishy letters' (yu shu), my edition of 'Song Shi Yi Bai Shou' says the following (sorry in pinyin!):
"Yushu - shuxin. Gudai ba xinzang zai zhi3zhi4 de liyu (carp) han (envelope) li zhuandi, zhe li han you *mifei* zhuandi de yisi."

Su Wu, an ambassador in a minister's rank under Han emperor Wu-ti (Liu Ch'e) at the turkic Hsiung-nu, was expected to submit to them what he firmly refused. Hence taken as a captive, he lived for 19 years with the Hsiung-nu at 'Pei Hai' (the 'Northern Sea' i.e. the Baikal lake in Siberia) spending his days as a goatherd - but all these years truely keeping his insignium as the Han emperor's ambassador. (See the line ¬°ÅɱN­xÀY in Wen T'ien Hsiang's canto 'Cheng Ch'i Ko', where 'chieh/jie' is referring to this piece, most probably a kind of tally like the 'hu fu' (the half of a tiger-shaped item). Up to now, I didn't hear about the wild goose story Siu-Leung mentioned.

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

Dear Siu-Leung

Why the fish became a military symbol is because of its skin, which is scaly, and appears to be armor-plated.

Your ruse story of Su Wu and the letter attached to the wild goose is interesting. He was sent on a diplomatic mission in 100 BC, but when detained by the Xiongnu (Huns), he refused to renounce his Han court association. He was then exiled to Lake Baikal and was said to wear his Chinese clothes till they became torn and tattered. His good friend, Li Ling, who was captured by the Xiongnu, was asked to persuade Su Wu to capitulate to their captors. Li Ling tried, but Su Wu shamed him by declaring his death-bound loyalty to the Han court. Su Wu suffered ninteen years of captivity as a goatherd before returning to Chang An in 81 BC. I do not know what was the out-come to Li Ling. An earlier diplomat from the Han court, Zhang Qian, also suffered a similar fate when he was sent out in 138 BC.

In regards to the goldfish paper-cuttings, I have been collecting paper-cuttings on my various trips to China, because of my interest in folk-art. In fact, I have many more goldfish cuttings, but I left many out when posting the photos because of space. Chinese paper-cuttings cuttings are very artistic and of many symbols. Many are multicolored, though the red ones are more traditional and equally beautiful. In the small towns, they are ridiculously cheap in consideration of the painstaking time to finish intricate designs, The price multiples in the cities and at the big departmental stores. Who said the Mainland Chinese are not capitalists?

Tin-Kay

The following is one of the first appearance of both as one term. It was found in All Tang Poems but could be the beginning of µü "ci".

¥Í¬d¤l¡@±iªc
¬Û¨£µ}¡A³ß¬Û¨£¡C¬Û¨£ÁÙ¬Û»·¡AÀȵe¯ï¤ä¬õ¡Cª÷½¯»f¸»³n¡C
¡@ ³½¶­²¨¡AªÚ«HÂ_¡Cªá¸¨®x³±±ß¡A¥i±¤¥É¦Ù½§¡C®ø½G¦¨ºHÃi¡C
About the origin of Goose for correspondence, the following could be the origin:

¦C¶Ç º~®Ñ¨÷¤­¤Q¥|¡@¶Ç²Ä¤G¤Q¥|¡@
¡@¡@¼Æ¤ë¡A¬L«Ò§Y¦ì¡C¼Æ¦~¡A¦I¥£»Pº~©M¿Ë¡Cº~¨DªZµ¥¡A¦I¥£¸Þ¨¥ªZ¦º¡C «áº~¨Ï´_¦Ü¦I¥£¡A±`´f½Ð¨ä¦uªÌ»P­Ñ¡A±o©]¨£º~¨Ï¡A¨ã¦Û³¯¹D¡C ±Ð¨ÏªÌ¿×³æ¤_¡A¨¥¤Ñ¤l®g¤WªL¤¤¡A±o¶­¡A¨¬¦³«Y©­®Ñ¡A¨¥ªZµ¥¦b¬Y¿A¤¤¡C ¨ÏªÌ¤j³ß¡A¦p´f»y¥HÅý³æ¤_¡C³æ¤_µø¥ª¥k¦ÓÅå¡AÁº~¨Ï¤ê¡G¡uªZµ¥¹ê¦b¡C¡v ©ó¬O§õ³®¸m°s¶PªZ¤ê¡G¡u¤µ¨¬¤UÁÙÂk¡A´­¦W©ó¦I¥£¡A¥\Åã©óº~«Ç¡A Áö¥j¦Ë©­©Ò¸ü¡A¤¦«C©Òµe¡A¦ó¥H¹L¤l­ë¡I

It tells the story of Su Wu as ambassdor to Xiongnu who took him hostage for years. Until Han emperor wove a story of receiving a letter from Su Wu via a goose . It was really a fake story to get Xiongnu to hand back Su Wu. But that was how goose became involved in "correspondence". The story between Li Ling and Su Wu is a great one for friendship.

³½®Ñ Yu Shu could be from the source I quoted earlier as a military order or letter of honor by the emperor. ost Tang poems containing the term imply the same except the following:
¾Ð¡]¤@§@±H¡^¥É­¡@­³¯o
¶À³¶»Î¨Ó¤w¼Æ¬K¡A§O®É¯d¸ÑÃبΤH¡Cªø¦¿¤£¨£³½®Ñ¦Ü¡A¬°»º¬Û«ä¹Ú¤J¯³¡C
which might later taken to be a real fish carrying a hidden letter, since it mentioned Yangzi River.

The other two poems are also in website as follows:

     ¤ý¦w¥Û¡]¢°¢¯¢±¢°¡Ð¢°¢¯¢·¢µ¡^
 
 
     ¡m»PÁ§»F©ú«Ù´Ñ½ä±öªá¸Ö¿é¤@­º¡n
 
 µØµo´M¬K³ß¨£±ö¡A¤@®èÁ{¸ô³·­¿°ï¡C
 »ñ«°«n­¯¥L¦~¾Ð¡A­»ªHÃøÀHÅæ¨Ï¨Ó¡C
 
     ¤å¤Ñ²»¡]¢°¢±¢²¢µ¡Ð¢°¢±¢·¢±¡^
 
         ¡m¹L¹s¤B¬v¡n
 
 ¨¯­W¾D³{°_¤@¸g¡A¤z¤à¹é¸¨¥|©P¬P¡C
 ¤sªe¯}¸H­·ÄƵ¶¡A¨­¥@¯B¨I«B¥´µÓ¡C
 ´q®£ÅyÀY»¡´q®£¡A¹s¤B¬v¸Ì¹Ä¹s¤B¡C
 ¤H¥Í¦Û¥j½ÖµL¦º¡A¯d¨ú¤¦¤ß·Ó¦½«C¡C
  Both are in agreement with that given in your website.

In my edition it is said that 'yu shu' is the former (ancient) expression for 'shuxin' (xinzang) sent in 'li yu' (carp fish) boxes to hold secret messages. (Sorry I cannot write the character text). You can find the editions's details in my anthology under 'Quellen' (sources).

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

The article mentioned ¥ñ¿ª Fu Xi as the inventor of the dragon symbol. Fu Xi also was the legendary figure that invented knotting string for records and writing. The inuits still has knotted strings as records in their culture today.

Thanks for the early citation about the fish-shaped identification tags used by the military. I suppose it didn't make much difference what kind of shape was used, as long as there were a number of shapes each for a particular rank. But this is really another usage of "fish", and is not related to "fishy letters."

You are right about the common usage of ³½ ¶­ or ³½ ¿P , the combination of "fish wild-goose" to mean letters. This is what I had in mind before.

My dictionary gives an entry ³½ºà [fish paper] to mean letter paper. So the association of fish with letter is well established. I still do not know how this came about.

The word ¶­ can possibly associated with letter as the ancient form of Air Mail letters! Carrier pigeons. The story about the Emperor's emissary stuck for many years, and finally sent a letter back attached to a wild goose?

I wonder how Tin-Kay could come up so many beautiful papercuts on fish.

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Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

You mentioned the term "yu shu" or "fishy letter", and explained that it means confidential lettters and the term is derived from the case made of fish skins.

I have seen the term "yu shu" quite often, but did not know about the confidential characteristics nor the box made of fish skin. Can you give me the source of this?

I have never known the real meaning of the term. I simply applied my own rational to mean "letters coming and going frequently like a fish," especially as letters between lovers. Sounds odd.

Rainbow Road
Wu Cai Lu

Dear Tin-Kay, excuse my late responding - I just now see your new postings: You're right with "Five Colour Road". The author/publisher Hu Chi (=Hu Qi)'s name is: Hu ('lake' without the 'water' radical = e.g. 'recklessly', name for Barbarian/Mongolian,Turkic tribes etc.) and Qi (special, strange - e.g. qiguai).
Sorry, since about two months my Chinese software is down so I cannot input character texts, just read).

Your posting on fish is quite exhaustive - done well! Maybe one could add that in ancient days there were small boxes made from fish skin to put secret/confidential letters in them, hence an expression like fish-letter 'yu shu' (I remember having a poem in my Song anthology with this term). Or was it that fish images were applicated to those boxes for decoration?

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

In the sentence "In ancient China, when fish was too expensive, the dinner would be accompanied by a symbolic wooden spoon", the words "wooden spoon" should be replaced by the words "wooden fish".

TinKay

Dear Alfred

I have got it. How silly of me not to think like a Chinese. I was wondering how Rainbow Road can become Wucai Lu. Last night I suddenly thought of the color, and realized that Wucai Îå²Ê means the five colors, implying the multicolor nature of the rainbow ²Êºç. Can you please give the name of the author, Hu Chi, in Chinese text?

Dear Herb Silverman

You have asked about an interesting Chinese animal symbol. Yesterday, while trying to post this reply to you, my computer crashed. It is now reactivated by DOS. Hence, I am re-writing all over again, and please check the Photo Section of the CTB Yahoo Page for the photos of the fish in Chinese culture.

The fish symbol in ancient China can be seen in many antique posters, art objects, decors and paintings. Despite the fish not being a member of the twelve Chinese Zodiac animals, it has many implications in the Chinese culture, both by its homonym and by its nature of tranquility and survival. In fact, it is a more common symbol for the general population than any of the Chinese Zodiac animals.

1. The Carp and the Goldfish

The fish Óã most ancient Chinese associate with is the carp, ÀðÓã Cyrinus capio, which can grow to forty years and a length of 100 cm. It has been cultivated in China for 2500 years, and can survive in small waterways, ponds and padi-fields. The carp has provided a good supply of food for the Chinese, though in inland China it could be a luxury dish, especially in times of war and natural calamities. The fish is best eaten steamed with ginger and other spicing.

There are a few varieties, the grass carp feeding on grass, the black carp feeding on insects and small crustaceans, the silver carp feeding on planktons and the golden carp (not the goldfish) feeding on excrement material. The carp in the Yellow River is constantly swimming against the current, and it moves upstream once a year to spawn. Another carp, the Arrowana, also called the Dragon Fish, is widely sought after by Overseas Chinese businessmen because its possession implies great wealth, and each Dragon Fish may cost a few thousand US dollars.

The Goldfish, ½ðÓã Carrasius auratus, is related to the carp, but its has no mouth barbels (whiskers). Although it appeared during the Jin Dynasty (AD 265-420), it became popular during the Song Dynasty (AD 960-1279). The Goldfish is considered partly ¡°man-made¡± because of generations of selection and breeding for its beautiful colours and interesting shapes. There are now over 300 varieties, the most famous being the lionhead, with a frontal hump, the red celestial, with its pop-eyes, and the veiltail, with its attractive tri-lobed tail. I remember when I was a boy, I collected a set of goldfish stamps from Mainland China, featuring all the best goldfish. Goodness, I am reminded to search my garage for the stamps.

The goldfish is omnivorous, feeds on vegetation and small insects and crustaceans. On occasions, when it escapes into the wild, it can grow from its captivity size of 5-10 cm to 30 cm, at the same time transforming to a greenish brown or grey color. The goldfish can live to 25 years and is also a common fish symbol in China, indicative of wealth and prosperity. Nowadays, it can now be bought in any Chinese city at the roadside where they are kept in basins of water. In the West, most pet shops will keep some varieties.

2. Fish Symbol in Chinese Culture

a) The word ¡°fish¡± is yu, Óã which also sounds the same as ¡°abundance¡±Óà. Sending friends a fish painting means wishing them abundance. For the goldfish, there is the saying ½ðÓãÂúÌÁ¡°Jin yu man tang¡± meaning ¡°Goldfish fish fill the Pond¡± sounding the same as Óñ½ðÂúÌà ¡°Jin yu man tang¡± meaning ¡°Gold and Jade fill the Hall¡±. This is a wish for abundant wealth or for many children in the family, thus, explaining why wealthy Chinese have a pool filled with goldfish. For the Cantonese, the word carp Àð sounds the same as Àû meaning profit or advantage. Hence a carp suggests a successful business year. Fish together with the lotus blossom Á«»¨ suggest the phrase that ¡°year after year, may you live in affluence¡± Á¬Á¬ÄêÓà. There is also a saying ÓãÃ×Ö®Ïç¡°land of fish and rice¡± meaning land of milk and honey.

b) The fish is also a symbol of fertility, serenity and fidelity, reflecting on its reproductive capacity, tranquility of life and companionship. The carp produces many eggs, glides gracefully in water, and swims in unison with her mate. A picture of a woman and a carp will mean fertility. Also, like a pair of Mandarin ducks, a pair of fish will indicate fidelity. In songs, a lover may compare himself and his sweetheart to a pair of fish. The goldfish is also interpreted as a form to counter evil for a married couple. Apparently, there is a saying in Chinese ¡°as faithful as a fish¡±, though I am not able to locate it in my dictionary.

c) For men, especially scholars, the fish relates to hard work and eventual success and rewards. In ancient times, when the Yellow River was full, the carp moved upstream in early spring to the ÁúÃÅ Dragon Gate, supposed to be where the Central Plain met the mountains. It fought the current to ascend the rapids, and on passing the Dragon Gate, it was said to transform itself to a dragon. This signified that the scholar, who studied hard and surpassed his mates by passing the exams, would enter an exalted life with honor and wealth. However, the analogy did not allow him to use the dragon symbol, which is only reserved for the Emperor. The early Chinese also believed that the carp, on reaching a hundred years, turned itself into a dragon. Alas, the Yellow River has dried up recently in many parts, and I wonder how any carp can now become dragonized, either by age or by passing the Dragon Gate.

d) In Buddhism, the fish is one of eight Buddhist symbol. Like Christianity, it has religious significance, and many temple courtyards have a pond with carps or goldfish and tortoises, the fish to indicate abundance and wealth and the tortoise to indicate longevity. The wooden fish ľÓã is not an actual fish, but a hollow block of wood (usually painted red with scales) for beating out rhythm with a knobbed stick by Buddhist monks when chanting scriptures. There is a religious story of a man who was begged by a fish to be set free. The man asked for a sign from the fish for this favor. Suddenly, smoke appeared with an apparition of a monk. The man immediate set free the fish and took this as a signal for himself to be release from the woes of this world by becoming a monk.

3. Certain Chinese New Year Customs and Traditions with Fish

a) Chinese New Year or Spring Festival is a time for gaiety and re-union with family and friends, accompanied by crackers, lion dance, red packets and music. If Chinese are said to be too hard-working, this is a period of 15 days when they can forget about work. Many cards sent to friends with a goldfish will wish prosperity, and with a carp, wishing either fertility or abundance. A boy and a fish will mean wishing the recipient many children and prosperity. The fish symbol will feature in many paper cuttings and posters hanged out for this happy occasion, hoping for surplus for another year.

b) At the traditional Chinese New Year dinner, some Chinese may have two live carps placed before the God of Wealth. These fish will then be released to continue bringing in the abundance. In most modern Chinese homes or in Chinese restaurants, the New Year dinner must include a cooked fish to usher in abundance for the coming year. In ancient China, when fish was too expensive, the dinner would be accompanied by a symbolic wooden spoon.

c) Amongst the Cantonese, there is a tradition, on the seventh day of the Chinese New Year, of taking ÓãÉú yee-shang dish, a raw fish served in fillet style (not a carp as it cannot be taken raw). The diners partake an enthusiastic role stirring and tossing up the dish contents to indicate stirring up a business. Each piece of fillet Óã¿é means abundance to come quickly Óà¿ì.

4. Interesting Fish Tales:

a) In Chinese mythology, there is a tale of a kind person who allowed a fish to be set free. While travelling in the sea, his ship capsized and he found himself at the palace of the Sea Dragon, who gave his pretty daughter in marriage. The Sea Dragon was none other that the released fish.

b) Eberhard relates in his book Dictionary of Chinese Symbols the sexual connotations of fish. The word for fish was used as a slang for penis, but the word is now supplanted by the word eel. Also ¡°fish and water come together¡± would mean having physical sex. When the constellation of Fish (Pisces) appeared in the sky, the period of ¡°clouds and rains¡± (sexual play) had passed, and the Emperor would be advised that it was not auspicious for him to have sex. Funny, even Emperor must submit to the Fish!

c) In Japan, which has close cultural similarities with China, there is an annual Boys¡¯ Festival since the tenth AD, called the Feast of Flags on the fifth day of the fifth month. Tall bamboo poles carried carp-shaped flags flapping in the wind, indicating to the boys that they should be like carps fighting against the water current¡£

5. Resources on Chinese Fish Symbols: a) Chinese Folk Art by Nancy Zeng Berliner ISBN 0-8212-16515-5 b) Arts & Crafts of China by S. Minick & Jiao Ping ISBN 0-500-27896-2 c) China: Empire of the Written Symbol by C. Lindqvist ISBN 0-00-272161-9 d) Dictionary of Chinese Symbols by W. Eberhard ISBN 981-01-3718-4 e) Chinese Animal Symbols by Ong Hean-Tatt ISBN 967-978-435-5 f) Chinese Propaganda Posters by S. Landsberger ISBN 90-5496-009-4 g) www.iisg.nl/exhibitions.

Tin-Kay

Dear Alfred

Thank you for your kind comments. I shall be most grateful if you can give me the Chinese words for the book "Wu Cai Lu - The Rainbow Road"and the ISBN. I wonder if some of the stories have being duplicated elsewhere.

Warmest regards

Tin-Kay

Dear Tin-Kay, congratulation for your precious contribution on Chinese literature (in Western languages). I could add some good books, but they're mainly in German, hence of less use to our readers. I am reading (again) "Hong Lou Meng" (Dream of the red chamber - Traum der roten Kammer) these days, a real fascinating novel with so many characters, plots, stories all in one. It's a very good German version by Franz Kuhn, Insel-Verlag, Wiesbaden 1951, with the poetry also well translated. (It's a gift from a friend, her deceased father was a publisher.)
I will be looking for that 'dui-zhao' version mentioned by you, which sounds quite interesting to get the original names of all those people along with the varying western transcriptions.
Many years ago, (naturally!) I was reading "Chin P'ing Meh" (Plum Blossoms in Golden Vase) and still remember Simen Ching (Hsi-men Ching) and his vicious life and cruel dying. Thanks a lot for the interesting background info: thank God, my pages weren't poisoned too!

I also own a nice Chinese-English story book (dui-zhao) titled "Wu Cai Lu - The Rainbow Road" by Hu Chi, Chao Yang Publishing Co. Hongkong 1973 with 21 stories and pictures (e.g. Xueshan xia de cunzhuang).

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

Find the word using ctrl-F
(You type capital A by shift-a. Here you use "Ctrl" key instead of the "shift" key.)

For example, if you wish to find the word "mirror", simply type crtl-F (Holding down the ctrl key with one finger and hit the F key with another finger.)
When a small dialog box appears, type the word "mirror" in the box. Click on "find next" and Windows will scroll down to that word. Like magic.
You can do this repeatedly to find all past discussions containing the word "mirror".
Note: The scope of this search is within this page. To search discussions of preveious months, go to "Archives."

The balls you mentioned are called "Ivory Balls" because at one time they were all made of ivory. Recently, ivory is banned over the world. these balls are now made mostly out of fish or animal bones. I have seen some made out of jade as well.

Dear Amalia

I am posting this late reply to your request for the names of Chinese story books in the CTB, because some of our Western readers may be in the same situation as you are.

For an ancient civilization like China with so many intellectuals, it is amazing that there are only four great novels, viz. The Dream of the Red Chamber, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, The Water Margin (All Men Are Brothers) and The Journey to the West (Monkey). Nevertheless, these four fantastic books, interwoven with intricate plots and stories and spiced with an artistic play of words, are in a class altogether different from the usual novels. In compensation for the few famous novels, the Chinese literati produced thousands of poems, reflecting the beauty of the Chinese words in their crispness and depth of thought.

Besides the four classic novels, there are lesser but equally entertaining stories like The Peony Pavilion, (which is now dramatized for the Western world), The Scholars, Strange Stories from a Chinese Studio, The Western Chamber, The Courtesan’s Jewel Box, The Peach Blossom Fan, The Palace of Eternal Life (Emperor Tang Ming Huang and Yang Guifei) and The Seven Heroes and Five Gallants (Justice Bao). There are also thousands of Chinese folk stories reflected in operas, songs and paintings, and many have been told and retold such that there are no actual authors. The best known are Madam White Snake, Hua Mulan and the Butterfly Lovers (Liang Shanbo and Zhu Yingtai).

One reason why scholars refrain from writing novels was that the author would stand a risk of being accused by some mischievous official of treason, if the author’s words and plots are taken out of context and interpreted as a criticism of the Emperor. Also, Confucian intellectuals deemed it beyond their dignity to write a fictional common story, unless it served some purpose. Another possible reason is that novels were written in the classical style, much harder for the commoner to read. After the introduction of the "Bai Hua" (literally white words, i.e. plain language), many Chinese writers started to follow Lu Xun (Story of Ah Q) in expressing their views in novels and short stories. The most famous are The Trilogy of Jia, Chun and Qiu (Family, Spring and Autumn) by Ba Jin, Midnight by Mao Dun, Camel Xiangzi (also called Rickshaw) by Lao She and Miss Sophie’s Diary by Ding Ling.

One interesting, though erotic book with a purpose for real life revenge, is "Chin Ping Mei" (also called The Golden Lotus), which is a spin off from the Water Margin. The author’s father, Wang Yu, had a Song painting called "Going Up River" coveted by a tyrannical officer, Yan Song. When the painting was finally surrendered, it was deemed to be a fraud by a scholar friend of Yan. Yan felt betrayed and subsequently cooked up a charge of Wang neglecting to prevent a Xiongnu (Tartar) border attack, and enforced his execution. Wang Yu’s son, Wang Shicheng, (the author), harbored a deep remorse, and after the death of Yan Song, he met again with Yan Song’s son, Yan Shifan, who had a hand in his father’s death. The younger Yan asked the author whether he had written any recent love story, to which the author falsely replied that he had just completed a new novel. He then returned home and wrote up a story of Ximen Qing, the villian and playboy character in the then existing book, The Water Margin. On completion of his erotic work, the author painted the corner of each page with a poison, so that the intended reader had to wet his finger to leaf through the pages. He then presented the book to Yan Shifan, who was so caught up with the sexual descriptions that he read through the whole book and to his eventual death. It is an irony that Ximen means Western Gate and Yan Shifan’s other name was Donglou, meaning Eastern Tower. I wonder whether the author of "In The Name Of The Rose", with a similar book page poisoning plot, was aware that the Chinese already had an actual murder by book reading years ago.

I am sure you can find all the famous Chinese books mentioned above through Barnes, Amazon or Chinabooks. If your children are able to read well, it may be worthwhile purchasing books by the Canfonian Press, because each book is bilingual with both English and Mandarin words as well as good pictures. Even adults like me enjoy these pictoral books with their well-written words. Canfonian has the whole gamut from the four famous classic novels to many historical and cultural stories. They can be contacted at email cclow@pacific.net.sg for a book-list and the name of the local agent. Many English or bilingual story-books are published by the Foreign Language Press, Beijing, and can be obtained from the Foreign Language Bookshop in any big Chinese city or at their local agent.

Of the four classic novels, there are so many translations and also abridged versions. I am only listing the books I have, and I encourage other readers to inform me if I miss some of the good translated works. The Dream of the Red Chamber has a translation by Chi-Chen Wang, and another by Gladys Yang and Yang Xiangyi. The most popular Western version by Penguin is called "The Story of the Stone" translated by John Minford. The Romance of the Three Kingdoms is, to me, best translated by C.H. Brewitt-Taylor, though there is a recent one by Moss Roberts. The Water Margin has a translation by J.H. Jackson, another translation by Pearl S. Buck called "All Men Are Brothers" and a third by Sidney Shapiro. The Journey to the West was a translation by John Yu, another by W.J.F. Jenner, and a shorter version under the name "Monkey" by Arthur Waley. There is a children’s version called "The Monkey King" by George Theiner(Paul Hamlyn).

"The Eternal Love", the Zhang Henshui version of Liang Shanbo and Zhu Yingtai, was given an English translation by the Canadian professor of Chinese Studies, S.R. Munro (ISBN 9810120575). Munro was fascinated, while a student in Taiwan, by what he called a "pyschic phenomenon" of the Taiwanese, who saw the Shaw Brothers?film about the two Butterfly Lovers, not two or three times, but twenty to thirty times, and in some cases, two to three hundred times!!!

Other books not mentioned earlier and which are suitable for both adults and children are: The Pipa (ISBN 9810120559), Summer Snow (ISBN 9810120540), Madam White Snake (ISBN 9810120354), The Heroine (ISBN 9810120346), The Peach Blossom Fan (ISBN 9810120532), Lazy Dragon (ISBN 9620401360), Ladies of Tang (ISBN 957606077), Tang Dynasty Stories (ISBN 9971985845), Short Tales of the Ming and Qing (ISBN 7507103501), Tales of Shaolin Monastery (ISBN 9620401581), The Scholar and the Serving Maid (ISBN 7507102246), Folktales of the West Lake (ISBN 9971985381), Dragon Tales (ISBN 7507100243), Lady in the Picture (750710088X), Elephant Trunk Hill, Tales from Guilin ( ISBN 0835111636), True Crime Cases from Ancient China ((ISBN 9971985764), Chinese Stories (ISBN 9971491656), The Three Blossoms of Chang-An (ISBN 9971492318), a Butterfly’s Dream (Charles E. Tuttle), Echoes of Chinese History (Charles E. Tuttle), The Story of China (ISBN 0207951268).

Happy reading to you and your family.

Tin-Kay

I am happy to know that you enjoy my website, and develop an interest in Calligraphy!

Internet may be the greatest invention since sliced bread; but there are limitations on what it can do. The next step is really to do some serious studies at the museum, library, or better still, attend some courses. Calligraphy is an art that is best learnt by doing it yourself.

It is impossible to tell what kind of paintings do you have without looking at them.

Your best bet is to consult some knowledgeable persons.

Thank you for telling me about your interest in China, and your 3D website.

It appears that your 3D site is in fact a commercial site for selling stuff on the Internet.

It has been my policy not to allow any for-profit sites to use materials in China the Beautiful. As you know, there are no Banners or Commercials of any kind at this site.

You request for affliation is not approved.

You questioned whether this phrase only refers to "failure" cases. I think that was the general intention. But if you look at the whole quoatation " ¥H ¥j ¬° Ų ¡A ¥i ª¾ ¿³ ´À " it doesn't apply just to failure cases but successful cases ( ¿³ ).

The proverb using the word "mirror" probably started with the following: ®Ê®Ñ¨÷¤@¦Ê¤Q¥|¡@¸ü°O²Ä¤Q¥|¡G °í¤Ö¤l¤¤¤s¤½àM¦³Ãd©ó°í¡A¤S¿Ï¤ê¡G¡u¦Ú»D¡C¡C¡C¡C¤Î¿Ñ¤§¤£¥Î¡A¦Ó ¤`¤£²T·³¡C«e¨®¤§ÂЭy¡A«á¨®¤§©úų¡C¡C¡C¡C

Yes, I agree with Ming's translation. I was just trying to make it literal to use the word reflection.In ancient time the word Ų was used for Ãè. The original verse came from several sources. Apparently it was a popluar proverb which did not have the word "mirror".

«áº~®Ñ¨÷¤Q¤W¡@¬ö²Ä¤Q¡G ¸ë½Ë¤ê¡G¡u«e¨®ÂСA«á¨®»|¡C¡v
¸êªv³qŲ:
º~¬ö ²Ä014¨÷¡@º~¬ö¤»¡@¡]BC177¡VBC170¡^¡G»À¿Î¤ê¡G¡y«e¨®ÂСA«á¨®»|¡C¡z
®Ê¬ö ²Ä095¨÷¡@®Ê¬ö¤Q¤C¡@¡]AD332¡VAD337¡^¡G¡@«e¨®¤§ÂСA«á¨®¤§§Ù
It probably was used before Qin standardize the road. When carts of one country were wheeled on a track in a different country, they are of different standard that if the first one tipped over, the following would do so too.

Ų is "mirror, reflection". The proverb means : What happened before is the reflection of what will happened later.

Your interpretation is absolutely correct.

A familiar quotation is:

«e ¨® ¤§ ÂÐ ¡A«á ¨® ¤§ Ų

which says that, "If the car in front overturns, it is a warning to the car following."

This is often shorted to just «e ¨® ¤§ Ų

The bowl shown in the photo is interesting. I do not know if one can say if it was from Tang Dynasty, but it certainly has the feel of Chinese export porcelean. The photo is shown upside down. You can read the calligraphy better when you turn it right side up.

Siu-Leung, the words of this composition are taken by Gustav Mahler from six poems in Hans Bethge's Chinese Flute (1907), a collection of verses in German based upon Chinese originals. Although not knowing the Chinese language, and thus just having indirect access to the poems, he obviously had a good feeling for a qualified choice. For more info on the Chinese culture's influence on Western writers, artists and composers have a look into:

http://www.easc.indiana.edu/pages/easc/curriculum/china/1996/EACPWorkBook/ideas/Influence_On_Western_Literature.htm

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

I think the next one (#20) at your site is closer to the translation for the "Farewell":
020 ©s¯EµM ±J·~®v¤s©Ð«Ý¤B¤j¤£¦Ü
¤i¶§«×¦èÀ­
¸sÀ¤°¿¤wº\
ªQ¤ë¥Í©]²D
­·¬uº¡²MÅ¥
¾ö¤HÂk±ýºÉ
·Ï³¾´Ïªì©w
¤§¤l´Á±J¨Ó
©tµ^­ÔÅÚ®|

So, now we have solved #5 and #6 of the 6 poem puzzles. By the way, I was amazed to see the quality of poems picked by Mahler. How did he pick some of the best of Tang poems for symphonic work? Was he reading from the German translations or did he consulted some Chinese scholars? Alfred? Any comments?

Dear Siu-Leung,
as I mentioned in a posting some time ago, the poems are all written ("transferred") by Bethge a long time ago - not by the composer Mahler!
The "old" German poets transferring ancient Chinese poetry into German (mostly Li Bai/Li T'ai-po and sometimes also Du Fu/Tu Fu) too often were exercising a pretty 'free style. So e.g. the famous German poet Klabund wrote very beautiful pieces of poetry after Li Bai - yet not at all Li Bai any more! We cannot except 'translations' of this kind as Chinese poems in our days: it's just old-fashioned 'chinoiserie'!

I do not think that Nr.1 is "jin jiang jiu" although there are some similarities. But what's with the graves and the monkey howling on it etc. - these 'pictures' in my opinion are too far way off! There must be an other origin matching better with this version.
Nr. 5 is comparably close to the 'pictures' and the sense. Yet, this translation done by G. Debon is a lot better:

An einem Fruehlingstag sich aus dem Rausch erhebend ¬K¤é¾K°_¨¥§Ó

"Das Leben hier gleicht einem grossen Traum" - ("ren sheng ru meng") ³B¥@­Y¤j¹Ú
Wozu dann noch die Hast, die Plagen alle? ­J¬°³Ò¨ä¥Í
Und drum bin ich berauscht den ganzen Tag, ©Ò¥H²×¤é¾K
Bis ich am Vordachpfosten niederfalle. ÀZµMª×«e·­

Wenn aufgewacht, aeug ich im Hof umher: ¨Ó¬ß®x«e
Da steht ein Bluetenbaum, ein Vogel singt. - (hua shu, yi niao ti) ¤@³¾ªá¶¡»ï
Wie das? Welch Jahreszeit mag heute sein? ­É°Ý¦¹¦ó®É
Mit den Pirolen spricht der Fruehlingswind.- (ying niao, chun feng) ¬K­·»y¬yÅa

Ich bin bewegt und moechte seufzen, klagen - (wo gan ...) ·P¤§±ý¼Û®§
Und bin dem Wein schon wieder zugesellt. ¹ï°sÁÙ¦Û¶É
Lauthals sing ich ein Lied, den Mond erwartend.- (chang ge, deng yue) ¯Eºq«Ý©ú¤ë
Nun endet es, und ich vergass die Welt.- (...wo wang shijie) ¦±ºÉ¤w§Ñ±¡

Prof. G. Debon

I think it is Meng Haoran/Meng Hao-jan!

¤ýºû °e§O Wang Wei had written more than one poem titled 'Parting', this one beginning with "Dismounting ...").

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

Yes, I got the one by Wang Wei. It is the two I posted on December 27 that I have problem. I searched "Complete Tang Poems" but could not find the appropriate ones.

The poems are listed in this url:
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/4133/dlvde.html

I tend to think that Mahler combined several poems and just created his own. The translation in English is quite detached from the original.

#1 is a modification of ±N¶i°s but not a complete quote.

#2 ? The second poem "Lonely one in Autumn" is said to be by Chang Tsi (Zhang Ji ±iÄy ±iÄ~¡H). I searched all authors. But none have all the words matching it.

#3 ? "Of Youth" ¤Ö¦~¦æ (§õ¥Õ) doesn't match in words.

#4 ? #5 is more intact
¡@¡@¡@¡@¬K¤é¾K°_¨¥§Ó¡@§õ¥Õ
³B¥@­Y¤j¹Ú¡A­J¬°³Ò¨ä¥Í¡C©Ò¥H²×¤é¾K¡AÀZµMª×«e·­¡C
ı¨Ó¬ß®x«e¡A¤@³¾ªá¶¡»ï¡C­É°Ý¦¹¦ó®É¡A¬K­·»y¬yÅa¡C
·P¤§±ý¼Û®§¡A¹ï°sÁ٦۶ɡC¯Eºq«Ý©ú¤ë¡A¦±ºÉ¤w§Ñ±¡¡C

#6 Who is Mong-Kao-jen? (Meng Jiao? Meng Hao-ran?) None of the poems match.
¤ýºû °e§O (as Ming cited)

As I was reminded by Rudy, 1,000 years ago, the Sung Dynasty was at its "prime". Emperor Zhen Zong §º ¯u©v ascended to the throne in 997 A.D. reigned for 25 years till 1,022 A.D.

So generations of children have recited this peom for the past 1,000 years. We have a lot of company.

Based on the first stanza, Nr.6a may be by Meng Haoran, See

Selected Tang 300 Poems, #019

"It would seem absurd to have these poems translated from Chinese to German, then from German to English, and finally back to Chinese"

Dear Ming and Siu-Leung - yes, this is indeed the fact! Both, the English and modern Chinese version, obviously are going back to the German 'origin' of Bethge (being moreorless word-to-word translations).
I am sure being able to tell you at least two of them after having solved my technical problems and my machine again capable for Chinese input. (Nr.5 Li Bai's "Der Trunkene im Fruehling" - Raising from drunkenness in spring - and Nr.6 b Wang Wei's "Abschied" - Parting - beginning about: "Dismounting of my horse ...").

Alfred

http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de
Traces of Butterflies' Dreams - "Tieh Meng Hen"
My Poetry

I am quite frustrated that I could not identify the poems in Mahler's symphonic poem, even with Alfred's hints. I searched "Complete Tang Poems" and found nothing close to the indications. This is a big puzzle. Yes, it seems absurd to go the whole circle.

Have you located the original poems yet?

It would seem absurd to have these poems translated from Chinese to German, then from German to English, and finally back to Chinese.

The poem you are searching is :

Ày ¾Ç ½g¡@¡@¡@¡@by¡@¡@¡@¡@§º ¡@§º ¯u©v

The full text is included in this page, under Song Dynasty
I remember learning it as a child from my Mother.